Here we go again….

Last year Jon Stossel had a whole TV show on how, if only we would farm endangered species then they wouldn’t be endangered any more. Look, see how logical he is? See how he can think outside the box in a libertarian/free market sort of way? Isn’t that clever. Now he has a new item concerning lion meat.

Let’s ask this guy.
Surely he should have an opinion. This is a moon bear. A farmed bear. He is farmed for his bile which humans like.

To facilitate the bile milking process, the bears are commonly kept in extraction cages, also known as crush cages, that measure around 2.6 feet x 4.4 feet x 6.5 feet (79 cm x 130 cm x 200 cm) for an animal that weighs between 110 to 260 pounds (50 to 120 kg).[2] While this allows for easier access to the abdomen, it also prevents the bears from being able to stand upright, or in some cases move at all. Living for 10-12 years under such circumstances results in severe mental stress and muscle atrophy.[3] In two model Chinese bile farms, HSUS reports that the bears are moved to the crush cages for milking, but the rest of the time live in a cage large enough to stand and turn around.[2]

Mr. Stossel – this is no joke. Look at that picture and tell me that is a bear. That is a crushed, broken down, beaten, barely living being. You should be ashamed of yourself for even suggesting that “farming animals” will save them. [tangent - please donate to a great organization that helps these bears: Animals Asia]

Ooh – let’s look at one of the chickens you’re so fond of: Here we go- yes, that’s lovely.

By the way – just how many versions of chickens are out there anymore…? Pretty much the one that has so much white meat that they can’t stand up by the time they are adults. And by adult I mean 3 months. The famous White Leghorn for eggs and the cornish cross for meat:

Many pastured poultry producers see the Cornish crosses as having weak legs, excessive rates of heart attacks, a high incidence of congestive heart failure (ascites), poor foraging ability, poor heat tolerance, and other liabilities when raised on pasture. While most producers value their rapid growth, others find it unnaturally fast. In most pasture-based production systems, Cornish crosses usually produce a five-pound bird in eight weeks. Keeping the birds longer than eight weeks and allowing them to get larger can contribute to even greater leg problems.

Bison? Per Stossel:

The American bison are the best example. A hundred years ago, they were on the verge of extinction. They were hunted almost to extinction because no one owned them. It was the Tragedy of the Commons . No one owned the bison, so no one had an incentive to protect them.

First off – Native Americans did what they could to keep folks from killing all the bison. They were outnumbered and out gunned.
Why do bison work as capturees? Because 1) ranchers give them a lot of room and leave them alone. 2) they are herd animals that with enough room won’t bust down fences.

How about tigers? They’re like lions.
There are currently more tigers in captivity than in the wild. That should be fantastic according to Stossel.

The world’s entire surviving wild tiger population is somewhere between 3,600 and 3,200, conservationists believe.
In China, there are now close to 10,000 tigers on farms, says Ms Mills, while other estimates suggest the number may be around 5,000.
“These are speed-breeding factory farms,” Conservation International’s tiger specialist says.
According to her research, farm tigresses produce cubs at about three times or more their natural rate, bearing up to three litters a year. Cubs are often taken away from their mothers before they are properly weaned.
These cubs, she says, are usually made to suckle from other animals, such as pigs or dogs – their “wet nurse surrogates” – so that the tigresses can produce more young.
“The part [of the farm] which people rarely see is basically a winery in which the skeletons of grown tigers are cleaned and put into vats of wine,” says Ms Mills.

Isn’t this fun? Isn’t this exactly how we want wild animals to be in the future?
Moron.

The good thing is, other than those straight by the book free marketeers the comments to Stossel have been in support to the animals.
Jk and Coyote - you guys are wrong.

Interestingly Marc Bekoff had a column out the other day differentiating between welfarists (those who are fine with humans using animals for food/education/entertainment etc as long as they are well taken care of) vs rightists (those who think that animals should have some inalienable rights).
There are obviously numbers people who are somewhere in between including myself but there may need to be a special category for those who think as long as the heart is pumping on the animal, we have saved it from extinction and they define that as good.

I’m obviously exaggerating here and I am certain Stossel does not recommend that “farmed” animals be treated like the bile bears and instead imagines them all treated like the bison. That is not how humanity works Jon. That is certainly not how the free market works either.

(cross posted at About Animals)

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12 Responses to “Here we go again….”


  1. 1 JG June 25, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    You should read the July Outside magazine about killer whales at SeaWorld and other places — not as bad as the bear photos, but along the same line — very sad.

  2. 2 Terri June 25, 2010 at 3:21 pm

    I know. It’s VERY sad. We take these wild animals living in miles of miles of sea (or land) and we coop them up away from their family (yes, they know family) and friends (yes, they have friends) and expect we will “learn” about how wild animals live by watching the show.

    I call bullshit.

  3. 3 taoist June 25, 2010 at 4:09 pm

    This is one instance where I think I’m going to have to disagree with you. While I agree that there are farms that are quite shameful in how they treat their animals, as you show above, there are quite a few species who have maintained significant wild stocks solely because of farming or ranching (a distinction I think most people do not make) – in particular several fish species, hawksbill turtles in the Caribbean, and as Stossel points out, the Bison.

    Now obviously there are policies that need to be in place to guarantee that the farms and ranches we set up are humane – and even with the examples I pointed to there are some issues (which we’re getting better at – modern aquaculture is a pretty new thing), but on the whole I think that the approach of raising the animals we’re going to use is much more sustainable, and better for the species as a whole, than simply hunting them down in the wild (or even banning hunting so that only poachers do so).

  4. 4 Terri June 25, 2010 at 4:14 pm

    Individualist or Specieist?

    I believe the individual should have a life worth living. If I were one of the last 5000 humans on earth I would not approve of being caged and bred to keep the species going.

    They did that with the CA condors only to be so successful they could return them to the wild. In the meantime – no situation in the wild changed and the CA condor gets to become rare a 2nd time while having forced the “last 22 condors” into captivity back in the 80s.

  5. 5 taoist June 25, 2010 at 4:52 pm

    Well, I think that in most cases I lean to the individualist – but that things that can be good for the individual are often good for the species, as well. I think that as far as breeding, for example, goes, how much we encourage it vs. let it happen is really an issue that comes down to the species and the circumstances. The genetic similarity that mass agriculture has given to many of more popular animals (and plants, for that matter) is definitely unhealthy and dangerous. On the other hand, cows, dogs, and horses all have some good examples of diverse breeding that has probably helped their species.

    Yes, pretty much any sort of domestication is a cage for the animal – but animals don’t have a broader understanding of what the rest of the world is like. Pets are the perfect example: most pets are quite well cared for, and have comforts far beyond what they would have in the wild. Is it wrong to deny a pet absolute freedom because it doesn’t realize it’s in the middle of a city and there are cars outside and no food?

  6. 6 Terri June 25, 2010 at 5:17 pm

    We’re talking about lions here. Not dogs.

    “Is it wrong to deny a pet absolute freedom because it doesn’t realize it’s in the middle of a city and there are cars outside and no food?”

    I’m not an idiot.
    “Is it wrong to deny a lion everything that makes it sane by caging it up in order to keep it alive as meat?” (or educational purposes or whatever?)

    We learn more about animals every year. And each year we ignore what they need in order to do what we want anyway.

  7. 7 LaNitaW June 25, 2010 at 5:30 pm

    Terri,

    This is a very interesting debate. The whole issue surrounding Bile Bears are absolutely disgusting, but I’m wondering if Jon Stossel has a point about farming endangered animals to save them. I think the bison example made a very poignant point. With that being said, I highly encourage you to watch this video:http://www.newsy.com/videos/lion-it-s-what-s-for-dinner/

    It’s a Newsy.com video that analyzes news media perspectives on the idea of serving lion burgers. An Arizona restaurant has already began doing so. It mentions the endangered species vs farmed-raised animal debate. If you would link back to the video, Newsy.com could link back to your site.

    Let me know if you decide to link to the Newsy.com video or if you have any questions,

    LaNita Williams
    LaNitaW@newsy.com

  8. 8 Terri June 25, 2010 at 7:48 pm

    I’ll be happy to link back, (http://www.newsy.com/videos/lion-it-s-what-s-for-dinner/,) but the story on newsy isn’t very interesting except to note that this lion supposedly came from a “free range farm in Illinois” when in actuality is came from a butcher in Chicago who does not check his sources of exotic meat, but just buys it.

    Here’s that story:
    http://money.cnn.com/2010/06/23/smallbusiness/world_cup_lion_burger/index.htm

  9. 9 taoist June 25, 2010 at 10:31 pm

    Terri, I know we’re talking about lions, not dogs – and I certainly don’t take you for an idiot. What I’m trying to point out is that there are examples where farming/ranching has been a good thing. It seems to me that since that is the case, we should try and learn why those cases succeeded, and apply them where we can. I’m not arguing that there are many cases of egregious factory farming, or that we should apply that sort of technique – I think it should be avoided, in fact – but I also don’t think that just because there’s one side of the extremes of farming that there isn’t another side that can be good.

  10. 10 Terri June 26, 2010 at 3:31 am

    Thanks Tao.

    However – for all the good intentions in the world we don’t do a good job of “managing” wild life.
    Can we handle cows? In some, not all cases. Same with chickens.
    Bison we kill by the herd because maybe, possibly, though it’s never quite been proven, they spread brucellosis to cattle.

    Our record on animal management is not good.

    There is no example of a lion ranch that is a good thing. (at least not that I know of or can find out about. Even the “free range lion ranch in Illinois where this burger came from in AZ turned out to be not true.

    Communism is said to be a great system that just hasn’t been done right yet. I’d argue that ranching wild (especially highly intelligent species) animals is similar.


  1. 1 Here we go again…… « About Animals Trackback on June 25, 2010 at 3:15 pm
  2. 2 Antibiotics in Cattle « I Think ^(Link)…… Trackback on June 29, 2010 at 2:11 pm

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